still editing . . .

[dbskyler]

Well, I definitely have a fic coming, but I don't know yet when it'll be ready to post. It could be as soon as tomorrow, or it could be quite awhile off still. Which brings me to a hopefully interesting question -- how do you know when a story is ready to be posted?

Let me tell you how I do it. First off, I edit as I write. I type a sentence, then edit it immediately if I decide I don't like it. Sometimes this leads me to go back and edit the entire paragraph. Sometimes I will then end up getting rid of the entire paragraph (a little trend I like to call "writing in reverse" -- sometimes the more I write, the fewer words I have in the document!)

Once I get to the point where I have a finished draft, I start doing read-throughs. The trick here is that I have to let the story "rest" in between so I can come at it from a reasonably fresh standpoint. (Not entirely fresh, of course, but fresher.) I read it through and edit it, then I let it rest again. Then I read it through again. If I find myself editing it some more, it's not ready yet -- I have to rest it again, and do another pass. The story is ready to post when I do a read-through and don't find anything else to change.

I don't remember how many times I've read through this latest fic, but it's been at least four passes I think. I thought it might be ready to post tonight, but instead I made some pretty major changes to it again. It's possible that I'll read it tomorrow and love every word, or it's possible that I'll go "what was I thinking?" and hack at it some more.

Anyone else edit like this? If not, what do you do instead?

Comments

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

I write a chunk (depends on how the words are flowing and what time I have available as to how big a chunk). Then the next time I come back to it to write, I re-read what I've already written so far, and edit as necessary. And so on until the entire fic's complete. Then it goes to my beta - and I ignore it until they send it back - then I'll re-read it, edit if necessary, and post.

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

Then the next time I come back to it to write, I re-read what I've already written so far, and edit as necessary.

I do that too. Sometimes I never get past the editing, and the writing session doesn't end up with any actual "writing" at all.

When I use beta readers, I send it to them after I'm through with my own editing. But I confess that I don't use them that often. I know they can be really helpful, though!

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

I find beta-readers invaluable for encouragement, and for pointing out if I've got a plot hole/inconsistency: the last fic I posted - last week - had a plot inconsistency in it and my beta pointed it out to me. I'd missed it because I was writing while tired and in pain so not at full concentration.

[justice-turtle.livejournal.com]

That's pretty much exactly what I do. I used to need about half a dozen full rewrites on every scene / section; I think I still do for long pieces.

Rudyard Kipling advocated a variant of the same method, iirc; he suggested letting a short story sit for six months or a year, then deleting everything unnecessary with india ink, then letting it sit another six months to a year and doing it again. I don't know how often he actually did that, but it certainly would help in developing a spare style.

I do sometimes use a beta - mostly when I can see that the story still needs major changes but I can't quite tell what changes to make. lolmac is the best beta in the world for that, and I'm lucky to work with her. :D

[lolmac]

*scarlet*

I vary a good deal on when and how and how much I edit, depending on how well a given section of writing has gone -- if it 'flows' well, I'll let it do just that, and make the inner Insta-Editor shut up and wait its turn. This usually happens when a given part of the story has had the right amount of hindbrain percolation, or maybe the stars are nicely aligned. Then I can just write and worry about the editing later.

Often, I write something and I know it's not quite right, but I've got some momentum going and I know I'll go back and work on the awkward section. If it's really substandard or sketchy (or there's a question to be answered that would interrupt the flow), I have a keyboard macro that allows me to change my typing to blue and back again; I'll toggle over to blue for the weak section and back again when I feel that I'm actually writing solidly again. Then I go back to the blue sections as a separate process.

All of which is an elaborate way of saying "I sometimes edit as I go, but not always, and there's always more editing to do."

My partner is my primary beta; she gets to see everything as soon as it's past the "bits of blue" stage, and she then gets to re-read the edited version. She reads everything before it's posted, even the drabbles.

I have a stage of editing that I guess I would call pre-readthrough. Sometimes I don't really need it; sometimes it's critical. It happens when there's a section or chapter that isn't doing what I want, or isn't doing it well enough, or is missing a 'spark'. I'll go over the section, drag bits around, sometimes copy the problem sectiion into a new document and just moosh on it until it gets better. The most extreme example so far was one chapter of Reverb: I wrote the chapter and knew it covered what I needed, but was too weak. I printed out the damned thing on scratch paper, sat down at the kitchen table with scissors and glue, and literally cut it up and resequenced it until it worked right.

I do readthroughs as you describe, both of sections and chapters, and of the entire work -- which can get to be a major undertaking when it's a novel and I'm on the later chapters! By the time I'm at that stage, I'm reasonably happy with the writing and I'm looking for problems, holes, inconsistencies, and missing threads.

I have two other people whom I trust as second betas: one's outstanding on tone and style and structure and all the other hard-to-define elements, and the other's outstanding on character and canon, as well as freshness and overall coherence. I also have technical betas: when I've tapped someone heavily for specific help (horses, dogs, firearms), I have them do a 'sneeze test' on the resulting material.

Except for drabbles and bits of crack, I don't post anything that hasn't been past at least one beta in addition to my partner.

And I have no idea if any of this is of any use to you at all, although the self-examination has been interesting!

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

I wish I could make my Inner Insta-Editor shut up, but I'm very bad at that. I think it's the major reason why I'm a slow writer, and get stalled out easily -- I have trouble generating and maintaining "flow." If there's something that I know isn't working, I have to go back and try to fix it right away. Sometimes this results in a huge breakthrough on the fic, and I discover a different direction and new energy. But sometimes I just go around in unproductive writing/editing circles.

I printed out the damned thing on scratch paper, sat down at the kitchen table with scissors and glue, and literally cut it up and resequenced it until it worked right.

Wow! I sometimes do something similar on the computer -- try out paragraphs in different orders, and compare them -- but I've never done the physical cut-and-paste. I'm impressed!

Thanks for your thoughts, and I'm glad you think it's interesting. I love hearing about this stuff, and yes, it's helpful. : )

[lolmac]

The scissors-and-paper cut-and-paste was an extreme event -- I'd hit the point where I realized I had to be able to look at the entire chapter all at once while I was resequencing, and the only way I could think of doing that was physical pages on the table. It was a kind of crazy evening, I have to admit. But it worked!!

(It's waaaay easier on a computer screen . . . )

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

Kipling's method sounds great, but I'm afraid I don't have that much patience. ; )

I really ought to use a beta more often, but I only use them in special circumstances (usually when I'm unsure about something, or when a ficathon requires it).

[pitry.livejournal.com]

I think I have a decidedly different writing style from yours, which also affects the editing process.

By the time I sit down to write, I already have all the important points of the fic in my head, or, depending on where I was/ what I was doing when I thought of the fic/how long the fic is, written down. Not as an outline - actual bits of the story, often with specific wording (this is why I hate when really good ideas come to me at work or worse! when I'm walking TO work. By the time I get down to write it, I usually lose some of the wording). I then write the whole thing. This is, by then, I'm already writing it semi-edited, because a lot of the processes of "this should go here that should go there, this is the best wording" has already happened in my head. I would edit still at this point if I feel I'm doing something wrong, but that depends on how hard it was to start the story. Once I finish writing it I give it a read (if it's a long chaptered fic, usually it would be in chunks, but if it's a shorter story then I probably write the whole thing in one day then re-read it), then let it stew on itself for a bit, then give it a second reading, polishing some wording etc. If I have a beta this is where I send it to her and not look at it again until I get it back with her comments - I first go over the comments specifically, then give it another full read. And that's usually it. I should probably give it more reads/edits, I guess, but in order to do that I have to let it sit again otherwise I'm bored by it and simply can't re-read it again, but I'm usually too impatient and send it on its merry way by then.

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

Yes, that does sound very different! It's rare for me to do pre-writing in my head before I begin a fic. More often, I just have a vague idea, and I "discover" the fic while I'm writing it.

I understand what you're saying about editing happening in the head, though. In those rare cases when I do have a strong sense of the story before I start writing it, I usually can write it fairly quickly and don't wind up with much editing to do.

[pitry.livejournal.com]

Yeah, for me it's all about a sense of the story I think. It has its disadvantages of course - if I don't have a strong sense of the story, I can't even start writing it, because it would just be staring at a blank page and writing nothing. When I already have a strong sense of the story writing is very fast, but before that... nothing. And, as I mentioned (and so did lost_spook), I can end up losing the phrasing because it was in my head and by the time I get to write it down it's nothing but pale imitation of what I had in mind and it's soooooo frustrating ;)

[thisbluespirit]

I... feel like a dinosaur. I write everything down longhand first. On paper. With a pen. Or pencil. Unless it's something very short and contained (or occasional crack!fic). So I start on paper. Sometimes it's more scenes and notes, but by and large, it's everything.

So my first bit of editing is choosing whether or not to type up what I've written when I've finished it (and of course, whether I finish it), and come back to look at it. Then I type it up, which is an editing process in itself (although I may well have made notes in the margin, or crossed things out, arrows to move things, or just made mental notes). Of course, it also has the problem that sometimes I can't decipher my handwriting, which is frustrating. (What if that was a sentence of genius and I can't read it? :lol: Luckily, this is never the case.)

If it's short, I'll just re-read and spell-check it then, and then come back to it again after a break and tweak it again. And repeat until I actually post it somewhere. If it's for a challenge, or I'm not certain of it, I'll get someone to beta it. (Usually persiflage_1 - and I know I can rely on her to point out any errors she sees, even if I foolishly don't send it to her!)

But i can't imagine that way of writing, going back over each sentence - for me, it starts with just getting the story down before it's gone. As Pitry and Beth say, there's a flow - you just jump on and write and write while you've got it. It won't last. If it's long, of course, that may start with lots of random notes, and short key scenes, and then move on to writing the full version (in longhand still).

I can't live without pens and paper. And I like a nice notebook for small fics. And for longer things, I need a fine black biro (a particular type) from Smiths, and narrow-lined A4 paper, not wide-lined. :loL: (Stationery obsessive, yes.) ;-)

Anyway, I am very pleased to hear that fic from you may be imminent! \o/

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

Hooray for pen and paper! I am old enough to appreciate the advantages of that method. The typing-it-up phase is indeed an editing phase, yes, absolutely. :D Also, you've made me realize a strange fact -- when I'm editing my work-related writing, I always have to print it out and edit it with a pen. But for some reason, I edit my fic on the computer. I'd never noticed that inconsistency before. Hmm.

there's a flow - you just jump on and write and write while you've got it. It won't last.

Yes, and this is my biggest issue as a writer, I think. It's something I ought to try to work on. It's weird, though, because I'm also afraid of working on it -- if I end up shutting up my internal editor in order to generate flow, what if that disrupts my writing process? Because as frustrating as that editor is, it's often right, and sometimes it leads me in great directions that I never would've otherwise found. I'll be sitting there trying to fix a problem, and suddenly a solution will come to me that turns the whole thing around and "jells" the fic. Of course, other times it stops me from writing anything at all. ; ) I suppose there's a happy medium there somewhere.

[thisbluespirit]

Well, everybody writes in different ways, and that's part of why it's fascinating to discuss. The one thing I've learned from taking authors round to schools is that none of them write in the same way. The only thing that is consistent about being a successful writer, it seems, is: that you want to write, you write words down, you finish things, and you're prepared to rewrite, edit and take criticism, and rewrite again. And there are probably one or two random geniuses in the world who don't need to rewrite, or something.

(I think, like Pitry, I can have quite a (seemingly!) complete idea in my head at times, although I do more of the working out in notes - and it's just a sort of rushing to try and capture that? Because it goes away really fast sometimes.)

Which is why I'm wary of all those 'How To Be A Writer' books. Or anybody who stands up saying that it has to be done in their way, really. Clearly, your inner Editor knows what she's done, even if she's irritating at times.

Yes, I have to print things out to edit them properly, too - or at least, I do if they're longer. I find I pick up errors far more easily once I've got it printed out. Except for very short things. When I think of how much I do edit - which is more than I realised - it's depressing how many stupid things & errors remain, especially in longer things!

[pitry.livejournal.com]

Oh, dear, how I hate the "how to be a writer" books. It's like, there are some basics you can teach, of course, some things that are universal, but for something like writing, what's the point in everyone writing the same? Not to mention that after a certain point when you are proficient enough in writing, you discover all those rules are there to be broken - it's always a question of knowing how to break them and why you break them, I think.

/tirade against "how to write" books.

[paranoidangel]

I edit similarly. The first draft I just write all the way through and change very little, unless I change my mind as I'm writing a sentence. Then I re-write everything if it's a long fic, or just edit if it's short. And then I just keep reading through it changing things and leaving it for a while and coming back to it. I define it as done when the only things I've found are tiny, little things. And then it goes to beta. All my fics have at least one draft, one re-write/edit and one edit - so that's up to v3. I think I've got up to double figures before when it's going badly...

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

I define it as done when the only things I've found are tiny, little things.

Yes, exactly. And sometimes I get into arguments with myself over whether a change is large enough to warrant another resting period and a re-read.

I don't keep count of my versions, which is probably just as well ; ) but the bare minimum would be two -- first draft, and one edit with just small tweaks. I can't think of any of my fics that only needed one edit, though. Sometimes things change a ridiculous amount between the first full draft and the final version, but for me, that usually means things are going well -- I've caught on to something, and the later versions are a huge improvement. My not-so-good writing is when I have a lot of little fiddling edits that don't seem to lead anywhere or accomplish much.

[paranoidangel]

I didn't used to keep track of versions, but then I'd find that sometimes I'd cut something that I'd then want to put back and then it's good to have an old version to go back to. Not that it happens very often, but now I've got anal about keeping copies of old versions just in case.

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

I don't keep separate files, but I do keep a "scratch" section at the bottom of my story. Any time I make a change that I think I might want to change back (i.e., not something like fixing a typo or a grammar error), I put the original version there. Sometimes it's just a sentence fragment, but sometimes I'll stick whole paragraphs in. That way, I can always go back if I need to -- like you, I find that immensely helpful.