what takes you out of a story?

[dbskyler]

I just finished reading a really good story on Teaspoon that had one tiny flaw: the writer kept referring to the city of Berkeley, California (and once to UC Berkeley), but kept misspelling it as "Berkley." No big deal, right? One little missing "e." Except each and every time I came across the misspelling, it took me straight out of the story.

This particular mistake probably only affected people like myself who are very familiar with Berkeley. But it got me wondering: what takes you out of a story?

For myself, I think the number-one thing is OOC behavior. (Or, to put it more accurately, behavior that I consider OOC, which I recognize may not be the same as what the author considers OOC.) After that, it's misspellings and grammatical mistakes, but this depends on their frequency -- a typo or two isn't a problem, but a consistent error drives me crazy (I start waiting for the next time it will show up). Cultural errors are also big issues for me. Well, since I read mostly in Doctor Who, I probably don't notice a lot of the cultural errors (and maybe even make some myself), but if I do happen to come across one, it takes me right out. Finally, I also have a problem with canon errors, which can be difficult when I'm reading a story that has been jossed. Usually I can think, "Oh, this was written before 'X' happened" and then go on, but I can never not notice the discrepancy.

How about you? What takes you out of a story?

Comments

[ghost2.livejournal.com]

Consistent misspellings of canon characters' names get to me. In most cases, it takes only a minute or so on Google to confirm the correct spelling.

Incorrectly punctuated dialogue is another one.
"Let's visit Earth for the millionth time." The Doctor said.

Argh, no!

ETA: Also, I just found the "Berkley" story and used my modly powers to correct it. Leaving it as "Berkley" felt wrong.

[justice-turtle.livejournal.com]

For me, it's mistaken descriptions of canon details, top of the list. I don't know exactly how to explain what I mean (I know it when I see it, as they say about great art ;P), but... like, there was one excellent MFU story I just couldn't quite handle because it had a throwaway line about Illya Kuryakin not wearing cuff links (he does) - or a Stargate SG-1 piece that described Jack O'Neill's shoes as size twelve (Richard Dean Anderson's feet are barely bigger than mine, I'd put him in a ten, tops). Or a small-fandom story that I love to pieces except for the one niggling fact that a mad scientist who canonically disapproves of boiled eggs is described, again in a throwaway line, of having invented an egg-boiling gadget.

...yyyeah, I guess the short way to put that is just "I'm the nitpickiest beta ever". *wry grin* And I don't turn the beta-brain off when I read fic.

OOC behavior / inaccurate character voices come next (especially the voices, because that's a beta thing; it gave me fits when Wolverine canonically switched from saying "flamin'" to "freakin'". Especially since "freak" is a huge anti-mutant slur in X-Men canon).

Cultural errors I'll usually forgive unless they have a plot bearing (I can't think of an example atm), and typos unless the piece is larded with them - I know how hard it is to find a good beta. (I'm lucky as heck to be my own, for spelling and grammar.)

As to canon errors - thanks to starting in Stargate SG-1 fandom, which has pretty much its whole history hosted on FFnet, I'm rather used to handling the "endlessly branching headcanon" deal. Pre-"Meridian", post-"New Order", this that or the other thing. Like you, I always notice, but... I see it more as an "index fossil" (heh *geology nerd*) than something that bothers me? Just a way to tag the fic into its proper place with regard to the show.

[brewsternorth.livejournal.com]

Consistent lapses in Britpicking if the fic's in a British (Sherlock, Lewis, Who, etc.) fandom. I know it's probably hypocritical of me as an expat to be picky about Britishness, but I can't help it.

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

Strangely enough, Google can also be used to confirm the correct spelling of a city . . . *g*

Although to be fair, if you really think it's spelled a certain way but happen to be wrong, you're not going to Google it and find your mistake. Hopefully you will correct it if someone points it out, though!

Incorrectly punctuated dialogue takes me completely out of a story. As in, I don't stick around to read the rest of it.

And hooray for modly powers making fic a better place!

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

Bad grammar/spelling/punctuation;

a failure of Brit-picking in stories about Doctor Who, Law & Order: UK or Foyle's War;

incorrect naming of canon characters (I still remember the DW fic author who didn't get Martha's sister, Tish's full name correct and it pissed me off immensely when she bitched at me for correcting her, or the LOUK fic author who wrote about James Steel's son and gave him a non-canonical name - and then the authors say "I didn't know" well BLOODY WELL ASK SOMEONE! That really pisses me off, there are active comms for the fandom, ask if anyone knows!)

poor/non-existent research

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

The canon details thing must make you a great beta, but must also mean you get thrown out of a lot of stories! I'm sure most people don't notice and remember all those little things. (I know I myself wrote a story once where Sarah remarked on the height difference between the Fourth and Third Doctors, because I was *sure* that Tom Baker was taller than Jon Pertwee. Turns out, they were the same height.)

Cultural errors to me are a big thing because when I notice them, I really notice them (although it's very possible that a lot pass unnoticed). If I'm really into a story, I might not even notice a typo, or if I do, it's gone so quickly that it really doesn't matter much unless they're frequent or consistent.

The jossing thing is a tough one because it's really not the writer's fault. For me, it's always better if I can go into a fic already knowing it's been jossed (or "become AU") because then I can completely ignore the canon discrepancies.

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

I think that's part of the point -- what takes you out of a story isn't under your direct control, so it's not a question of being picky. You're right when you say you can't help it. Do I understand why someone would think "Berkeley" is spelled "Berkley"? Yes. Do I think it was an unforgivable error? No. Did it take me out of the story each and every time, to the point where I was just waiting for the author to make the mistake again? Yes. I couldn't ignore it; it was like a hammer on the head saying "THIS AUTHOR KEEPS SPELLING BERKELEY WRONG. LOOK, THERE IT IS AGAIN." I couldn't have turned it off even if I had wanted to.

[thisbluespirit]

I think I'd probably say the same things as you. (Although I confess, I would not notice if someone misspelled Berkeley, not being familiar with it. Mind you, maybe I have seen it written somewhere, because Berkley in that context looks wrong to me, too.)

One other thing is formatting - even if a story is well-written, if it's not got line breaks between the paragraphs etc., so it's effectively one lump of text on the screen, I'm off.

I am a picky Brit when reading DW fic, although I know how hard it is to get it right the other way around (you may possibly recall my muffin ignorance during my attempts to write TWW, among other things), so I do try not to notice it too much... but it's THERE and sometimes I've not even heard of the word the character is using, and it's a struggle not to get distracted from the story, even when it's good.

OOC is undoubtedly the biggest one for me, and in a way, the Brit-picking is part of that - I don't care how US someone is in their general prose, but if they're writing someone's POV or dialogue, it'll keep annoying me, and I can't help it. But yes, things people would never say or do, or making them far more ideal or worse than they are in canon.

I suppose giving my wimpish tendencies when it comes to ship fic, then sudden pr0n flips me out of story - especially a DW one - faster than anything else on earth. Sometimes what some people would rate as All Ages, is not what I would. But that isn't a story fault (well, unless it's really inappropriately rated!), that's just me being me.

[clocketpatch]

I'm mildly creeped out by this use of modpowers though not actually adverse to it because thing should be spelled right!

[pitry.livejournal.com]

OOC for sure, my biggest one. If I don't recognise the characters, or they do something that I deem out of character and it's more than a throwaway line, I'm out of the story.

Also, overly stiff storytelling and/or dialogue.

[clocketpatch]

I wouldn't have noticed the Berkeley/Berkley issue since I don't live there, but if someone was consistently spelling Vanatua or Ontarow or something like that I would be very, very jarred (and would probably be sending a polite pm explaining that their spelling is Wrong Wrong Wrong!)

Other things that will throw me out are cultural/historical/scientific inaccuracies if I catch them. Most I don't. But if I know that bald eagles only live for 45 years and the bald eagle in this story is 78 and there isn't a plot reason to explain it I will be rolling my eyes (example inspired by a really bad email forward). But I'll probably keep reading if I like the fic.

Um, massive text blocks will deter me. But if I like the fic I'll copy-paste it to word and manually create white space.

Inaccurate representation of mental illness is one of the few things that can make me whole-heatedly abandon an otherwise good fic that I was enjoying. Especially if the author confuses schizophrenia with multiple personalities.

[thisbluespirit]

But if I know that bald eagles only live for 45 years and the bald eagle in this story is 78

I have to ask... has this happened to you with a lot of fanfics? :lol: (Sorry, I'm easily amused and I'm now imagining people all over the globe rolling their eyes because yet another author had an erroneously Ancient Eagle, "I mean, just because they're bald, doesn't mean they're 90..." The new Mary Sue? And... and... I know you just used it as example.)

*goes away quietly*

[thisbluespirit]

I forgot to add, that being mainly in DW, canon errors aren't a huge deal - I mean, in canon Zoe can't remember from one day to the next if she knows what a candle is, and nobody knows what year UNIT are in, and there are 3 separate explanations for Atlantis, and the number of superior aliens involved in sparking off life on Earth must have made the newbie planet quiet crowded. Even without the 'maybe it was the Time War/Genesis of the Daleks thingy/Universe reboot')

That said, really obvious character things can jar. Also I got obsessive about the Doctors' eye colour at one point, so anyone telling me any of Doctors 1-8 have brown eyes lose me at least briefly. Ditto if they think the Brig has blue eyes. Which is unfair of me, because TV is very deceptive, especially with anybody who has hazel or grey/grey-blue eyes.

On the same lines, I once was reading (or unwisely attempting to read, see above) a Five/Tegan story, when the author talked about Five's hairy chest. I mean, perhaps they hadn't seen Black Orchid but I have. For any of the other Doctors, you're relatively free to speculate, but for Five we have pictures and things. (And, indeed the DVD commentary where Janet asks, "So, did you shave, Pete, or are you just not very hairy?"

Basically, I gave up and went off to giggle.

But OOC things is always the main thing.

[thisbluespirit]

Ohh. Excuse me spamming you this morning, but I meant to add and forgot: I don't think I've ever seen you use a glaring Americanism in a DW fic. I think I only realised you were from the US because it was either in your profile, or something you said in one your replies on Teaspoon. You're really careful about it - and as an unfairly nitpicky Brit, I appreciate that! And certainly, i know that if ever an error crept through, you'd want to be told. (Just as I am glad when you stop me muddling up my muffins and my cupcakes. Or having people pissed when they're drunk rather than angry.) :-)

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

There must be more than one "Berkley" story because the one I was referring to still has the errors in it. It's a multi-chapter fic, and the misspelling occurs in three chapters.

Unless by "modly powers" you mean you asked the author in your modly capacity to correct it, but they haven't done it yet? I too find it a little scary that you can actually change text on Teaspoon (if you can), but it also makes me glad that I'm not a Teaspoon mod, because I would find the power to do that very tempting. I have a little list . . .

[paranoidangel]

It's insignificant details that most people don't know, but I do and have a big impact on the plot. I can't think of a good example.

And Americanisms in British fic and the reverse. But mainly with things I don't know what they are, so characters are talking about them in a way that doesn't make sense, so I spend more time wondering what's going on than focusing on what's going on. And words that mean different things in American vs British English. So for example when someone takes their pants off and I get very confused about them still wearing underpants.

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

Yes, there's a big difference between an honest mistake and carelessness. If you've always thought a name was spelled a certain way but happen to be wrong, that's one thing, but not bothering to look it up is something else again entirely, as is getting mad at a reader for pointing it out.

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

I don't even try to read the big blocks of texts, so I never find out if they're well written or not. ; )

Getting the cultural stuff right is indeed a big part of staying in character.

Shippy fic is an odd one. I can read it, but yes, when it's not a canon pairing (which it usually isn't), it does tend to strike me as OOC. I think this is my number-one reason for disliking Doctor OTP fic -- no matter who he's paired with, it always feels OOC to me (with the possible exception of the TARDIS *g*).

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

Yes, stories that don't "flow" well not only throw me out; they never allow me "in" to them in the first place.

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

I can't remember ever having the problem, but yes, if a writer ever got a detail wrong about something I know a lot about, it would definitely throw me.

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

Canon errors in Doctor Who???!!??? Surely you jest!

Remember, "Time Can Be Rewritten." All of those seeming discrepancies were carefully planned out over 49 years. ;D

I'm kind of surprised to hear that an avid Five/Tegan shipper (or someone who was avid enough to write a Five/Tegan fic, anyway) would not have seen "Black Orchid," or remember Peter's chest in it. And actually, I think we've seen a lot of the Doctor's chests over the years. Someone ought to do a picspam. In the interests of fic accuracy, of course.

[pitry.livejournal.com]

Wait, are you suggesting at least 2 of the three times they drowned Atlantis didn't actually happen? *sadface*

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

Really glad to know you haven't caught me in a cultural error, although I do know of one that sat in a posted fic for a long time before I found out about it and corrected it: I used the term "fire trucks" instead of "fire engines" when writing from Sarah's POV in "Miles from Aberdeen." Errors like this can be hard to avoid, but that doesn't mean they don't jump out at readers.

As for figuring out that I'm from the U.S., perhaps my American spelling gave it away? ; )

I honestly don't understand why some authors don't want to be told about mistakes, or get mad when they're pointed out, or don't correct them when they are pointed out. Okay, if it's something you should have known about, it might be embarrassing, but isn't it still better to be given the chance to correct it? And as for cultural mistakes, those should never be embarrassing, or taken personally when pointed out. How can you be expected to know what a muffin is if you've never seen one?

I know that some authors have a "this is just for fun, don't ever correct me" attitude, but if they think that no one is noticing the mistake other than one "picky" reader, they're deluding themselves.

[ghost2.livejournal.com]

It definitely is a different story. The one I found had multiple misspellings of "Berkeley" (including "UC Berkley"), but it was just one chapter long.

Yes, mods can change text and edit story settings. This is done only in rare cases when clear mistakes exist (for instance, adding a "non-con" warning to a story that lacks one, moving a miscategorized fic to the proper section, or correcting an obvious typo in an otherwise acceptable story). Being able to edit also came in very handy when a database change a few years ago wiped out the ratings on many stories, and they had to be manually replaced.

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

Yes, there are two kinds of cultural errors, ones that are simply dead wrong (a character wouldn't say that) and ones that lead to confusion because of a difference in meaning. I'm not sure which one is worse, actually.

Then there are the terms that aren't cultural errors at all, but still lead to cross-cultural confusion. I still remember getting confused about the Doctor wearing a "jumper" when I first started reading DW fanfic. Eventually I learned what the British usage of the term means, but to this day, I still get a mental flash of its meaning in American English, which is this.

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

I gave up on the LOUK author's fic - it's was a really long thing and I spotted her error in an early chapter and then went on reading, but she got so snotty with me, I abandoned the story (which was badly written anyway!) as I wasn't interested in interacting with someone who was biting my head off while accusing ME of being rude. I wasn't - I never am! - but it's surprising how many authors, if you point out an error, then accuse you (well, me, anyway) of rudeness!

[shadowturquoise.livejournal.com]

 Coming a bit late to this discussion. My top Doctor Who peeve that throws me (briefly) out of a story is Tardis instead of TARDIS.  I will, however, keep reading. 

One thing that will keep me from being invested in a story is the use of "sound bites" from canon. When characters speak the exact same phrases in a fic that they have spoken in a different setting in an episode it throws me straight into the second Doctor episode The Mind Robber, populated by fictional characters who can only speak words that have been written for them.

Another is extremely long sequences of dialog without identifiers. This can be done well, but if it isn't it is confusing. If the people speaking aren't obvious by voice or context i get lost after 3-4 exchanges and have to count lines to see who is saying what. Maybe I'm just a lazy reader. In any case I've been known to lose interest in a story for that reason

[shadowturquoise.livejournal.com]

I do that too. Every time I come across the word "biscuit" I initially see a round piece of non-sweet breakfast bread, the my brain says "no wait!"

My first encounter with the British use of "jumper" was the Harry Potter books. To this day, every single time I read the word "jumper" I get a quick flash of Percy Weasley in a dress.

[thisbluespirit]

But of course they did - there have been three major rewrites to the Timeline, which should accommodate each of them quite happily somewhere in there. Otherwise, they were in an AU and didn't notice.

[thisbluespirit]

Someone ought to do a picspam. In the interests of fic accuracy, of course.

:lol: Yes... Now, Three definitely strips off in Spearhead, Eight gets examined by Grace and has his shirt undone and Nine gets chained up bare-chested at some point, I think? It seems likely Ten must have undone his shirt at some point, but I forget. And Eleven did some stripping off and showering a la Three in The Lodger.

And for Six, there's always that thing that nobody is allowed to mention. Just One, Two, Four and Seven needed? Internet, where is all the nekkid!Hartnell? Ohhhh dear... :lol:

And, yes. I was *so* amused. I'm bad at reading Doctor-related ship fic at the best of times (as you say, you've got to work a bit not to make it OOC). Throw in an inaccurate hairy chest, and I'm lost. And sniggering. (It doesn't stop me trying Five/Tegan though sometimes. Some people can do it right and then it's lovely. But it's an art. I just wind up with them arguing and only shipping in unspoken ways. *sigh*)

[thisbluespirit]

Some British people use American spelling sometimes, anyway, so it wouldn't necessarily have jumped out at me. I mean, I was probably too busy enjoying the fic and not wondering about your Secret Identity at that point. But you were definitely someone where it wasn't obvious where you were from straight-off, just from a fic or two.

I... had seen a muffin. I had just assumed, because our traditional muffins are far more obviously bread-like things while the US muffins in the supermarkets came in cake cases and sometimes could be chocolate with choc chips in, or have blueberries, that they must therefore be cakey and sweet, and more like cupcakes than our muffins. However, in my defence, I hadn't ever eaten one of them (I have a milk allergy). But it was cool, because you gave me a far better flavour for it - or someone in the post did, anyway - than I would have thought of had I made it a blueberry muffin in the first place. See, beta-reading and cultural-checking; they are great things!

Anyway, sorry. Why am I waffling about muffins? :lol:

Oh, yes. We pernickty sorts are crossing them off our rec lists right away, for a start.

[thisbluespirit]

:lol: Yes, the pants thing is terrible, because even in a US fic, where writers would obviously use it, we readers in the UK are inevitably picturing really Wrong Stuff going on and getting the giggles. (Or this reader is.) There's not really much a poor writer can do about that.

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

Well, it's also very hard to know what muffins taste like if you've never eaten one! They can be very sweet, but they're still not quite the same as cupcakes. More "bready" if that makes any sense. Anyway, even if you had eaten one, it's still very understandable that you'd have trouble with them in a fic. I know that I had crumpets once -- I even remember exactly where and when I had them (it was during a trip to England) -- but I'd still be very hard-pressed to describe them in a fic because it was a one-time thing, and my memory of them is vague.

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

Oh god, yes, the "biscuit" thing! I have that problem too.

Percy Weasley in an (American) jumper, LOL . . .

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

LOL, I'm guessing this commercial didn't air internationally, then . . .

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, "Tardis" bothers me too.

I don't like it either when an author repeats a lot of dialogue that appeared in an episode, regardless of whether it's in the same context or not. I've already seen the episode; why is the author now making me read it? (Of course, that may be hypocritical of me to say since I've put in snippets of episode dialogue myself in fics, but there was a "good" reason, and hopefully I've not put in "a lot," aka "too much.")

The long dialogue sequence thing without clear identifiers is just bad writing, IMO.

[thisbluespirit]

*dies*

(And I'm thinking, "But you clearly ARE wearing pants...")

Life would be duller if we spoke the same English language, wouldn't it? (I am amused by your jumper/dress one, as that is pretty much as ridiculous. Although probably pants turns up more often.)

Here, in return, radio comedy with Brits being silly about "in my pants" trend on Twitter (remembering our meaning, of course): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnXitEfvN3U

[dbskyler.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure we saw Seven's chest in the TVM, and we saw at least part of Ten's (or Ten II's, anyway) in "Journey's End." Four wore that white pirate-y shirt in some of his later episodes, right? Wasn't there at least one scene sometime where it was fairly unbuttoned?

But we're probably out of luck when it comes to Hartnell and Troughton, oh well.

What is the Six thing that we're not allowed to mention?

[thisbluespirit]

Oh, of course! I had forgotten. (I was too busy being traumatised by them killing off my Doctor.)

Well, Two has a medical examination in one of the surviving eps of The Wheel in Space, and I am pretty sure he unbuttons his shirt, although whether we see anything, I couldn't tell you. But he swashbuckled as Robin Hood, so there may be evidence Troughton-wise... You are right. Clearly this is a matter for careful study!

70s pr0n Colin? ;-) (Ask Clocket sometime.)